Larry Neuman has been a violist in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra since 1991. He reveals how CSO musicians work together to create the Orchestra’s unified sound, and tells the story of overcoming his self doubt as a student to become a professional musician.
Larry Neuman has been a member of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra‘s viola section since 1991. He tells his own story of getting to the CSO and offers advice for young musicians aspiring to become professional performers. He describes the intensity of hearing live concerts, how the caring and commitment of each player builds a unified sound, and the importance of the CSO’s contribution to Chicago.
Larry Neuman: My love of music has only deepened over these years. I still want to get better. After 30 years, it's fun to keep trying.
John Hagstrom: Welcome to intermission at the CSO, taking you behind the scenes at the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and sharing stories about what it takes to make this one of the world's great orchestras. I'm John Hagstrom. I play the trumpet in the CSO and this episode features a CSO musician who is not a principal player or a solo player. He doesn’t play the highest notes. He doesn't play the lowest notes. In fact, most of the time, any note he plays is within a group of about 12 other players on his instrument playing the same notes at the same time.
He's been in the orchestra since 1991, and so he's also got lots of experience playing supportively right in the middle of our sound. Our guest today is Larry Neuman. He plays in the viola section. So Larry, thank you so much for your time to be featured on Intermission at the CSO.
Larry Neuman: Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on this podcast for the Chicago Symphony.
John Hagstrom: Well, let's start with what I know is probably an easy question for you to answer, but, for some listeners and audience members, this is something that they might be wondering about when they go to an orchestra concert. And that question is this: when you look at an orchestra, there’s just one player on a part in the woodwind and brass sections, but then in the string sections, there are lots of players on each of the string parts. So why is that? And what effect does it have on the sound of the orchestra?
Larry Neuman: Yeah, that's a really good question. So the more instruments that are playing a given part … so most of the time we are all playing exactly the same notes at the same time. And the more instruments doing that, the more blended and full the sound becomes. So if you have only two or three or four violas playing one part, that's one sound, but if you have 12 violas or 14 violas, it just becomes a fuller, more complete, a richer sound. And as the symphony orchestra expanded in size over the last couple of hundred years, they started adding more and more players maybe because concert halls started getting bigger, maybe because the composers wrote for big orchestras. And that just sounds phenomenal when you have that many instruments in a given section.
John Hagstrom: And the viola section in the CSO does sound phenomenal, if I may say so, Larry, and so here's another question. It's a more difficult question — for 12 players to find a common sound, that's the biggest part of your job in many ways, more than just being individually expressive. And so that can be stressful. There’s a big group of musicians here who all have their own opinions and some very strong personalities. And they may disagree with how they're asked to play. And so from your experience from your perspective, how does all that work? How do we work through all of that?
Larry Neuman: Yeah, you're touching on a very, very important and difficult subject. It's just a .. this is a hard, very difficult part of being a subordinate, really in any situation, right? But especially for musicians who have such strong opinions and they've worked for years to develop their artistic autonomy and their own imagination and ideas, and, you know, people learn to defer to authority and to just say, you know, I’ve got to just keep my mouth shut. I really disagree with this, but that's OK. We can still make this sound good no matter what. And that, that takes a lot of time.
It's definitely an issue that we all have to grapple with. But most of the time we're surrounded by these beautiful sounds, and I think we overcome that. We recognize, OK, this is what it's for, but boy that's just a part of life. That's just life all over, right? It doesn't matter if it's in the orchestra or any other part of society. It's hard. It’s harder for some than for others. And especially in our American culture, where the individual is given so much power, or at least told that that's all about yourself. And we know that that's not really true all the time — we have to think about the bigger picture, think about other people and think about the group and what's best for the group.
John Hagstrom: Yeah, I think all of us want what's best for the group and for our group to create a great experience for listeners. And I know from talking to you, though, that doing that is tiring and can be exhausting and even discouraging, because we each as musicians have a sort of an opinion or a voice in our head of what we would like to do, how we'd like to play it, maybe differently, and that's hard …
Larry Neuman: It's so true. It's so true. I'm reminded of our colleague Michael Mulcahy, the wonderful trombonist in our orchestra, who, when I first came to the orchestra, literally 30 years ago, I remember having a discussion with him. And we were talking about this very thing, about the challenge of quieting our own musical ideas when we're on stage and how difficult that can be sometimes psychologically, right? We think we know it could be this much better, or we could do this (and) it'll just improve it — but we have to just keep quiet. And he was saying it's important that we do as much as we can musically also outside the orchestra, teaching chamber music or whatever it might be that really keeps us balanced, because we love playing in the orchestra, but we have to express ourselves sometimes more than we can in the orchestra. I've found that to be absolutely true.
John Hagstrom: Well, it is true. And I totally agree that playing only in the orchestra doesn't necessarily give us what we might need as musicians. And you're right that many CSO players, including Michael, do teach and perform solos and play chamber music outside the orchestra. And that makes me think that this might be a great moment to follow up with the fact that you also are part of a really great chamber group, a string quartet, which recorded one of Dvorak’s string quartets. And I think you were the first group to record in Orchestra Hall this summer after the pandemic shutdown. And since it starts, that piece, with a viola solo, what can you tell us about that particular viola solo?
Larry Neuman: Well, first, I would say this is Dvorak’s most famous string quartet, nicknamed “The American Quartet,” and after a couple of bars, quiet bars of the violins and cello introduction, then the viola comes in, and it's just a lot of fun to play. It's not especially difficult, technically. I hope I don't sound in that recording like it's difficult to play, but it's just gratifying. It fits the viola so well. It’s a wonderful melody and everybody who plays viola and even anyone in string quartets knows that tune so well. It’s one of the most popular tunes in all of the chamber music repertoire.
John Hagstrom: And after that opening viola solo, the first violin part takes over your melody. And in this case, that violin part is played by your wife, Qing Hou, who is also a member of your quartet, and who has been in the CSO violin section since she joined the orchestra back in 1997. And so what is it like for a professional musician to be married to another professional musician? And I don't think we've ever even talked about this, but what is that like?
Larry Neuman: I feel very lucky. I feel lucky to be married to her and to both be in the same musical environment, in the orchestra together. For one thing, we have a lot to talk about and to share, in this whole musical realm. Not just the orchestra — that’s big enough in itself, but we get to ... this thing, this deep love that we have for music, we get to share. And I feel very grateful for that. She's my life partner, not only in life in raising our child, but also in music. And we get to travel together for work, and we walk to the hall. We live, we're fortunate enough to be able to live here in the South Loop — we live a mile from the hall. So we get these walks every day to work, two times a day and sometimes four times a day, this 15- or 20-minute walk when we have rehearsal and then concert in the evening. It's wonderful. And I'll tell you, it's challenging at times, but most of the time, it's fantastic.
John Hagstrom: So Larry, before we go any farther, let's talk about the viola itself a little bit, for people who might not be familiar with the role it plays in an orchestra. What does it give to the orchestra’s sound? And what do you like about playing the viola?
Larry Neuman: So ... inner voice. The viola is an inner voice. It's more often fabric —textural stuff, rhythmic stuff, harmonic filler, once in a while given the melody. But the tone is definitely more covered, a little darker, not as loud. People just don't hear the viola as well. One thing I love about it is that I can listen. I think I can listen more easily playing viola, and the viola part, than some of my melody playing colleagues. And so I love that. I love that about being a violist in chamber music and in the orchestra.
John Hagstrom: I want to ask you about how you started in music, and to tell us in sort of a brief way about your whole journey as a musician, starting when you were really young, because I know that there are lots of students who listen to this podcast. And when I was a student, I always was interested to learn about how professional players became successful, since I was trying to do the same thing. Also, speaking of being students, I think now is a good time to tell everyone that you and I were in the same class as students, at the Eastman School of Music many years ago. We were music students together. But first please tell us first the story of how you started and how you ended up playing the viola.
Larry Neuman: So I started music studies on the violin when I was about 7 years old. It was around the age of 12 or so that my Russian emigré teacher, at that point, I was studying with a very fine violinist who was in the St. Louis Symphony — I grew up in St. Louis. And he encouraged me to learn viola. He said, you're getting bigger, your hands are big, and so he wanted me to learn viola and he encouraged me to do it. I did that and was playing both instruments, violin and viola, for a few years. I got into the St. Louis Symphony Youth Orchestra as a freshman in high school, playing violin for two years. And then the third year, in my junior year in high school, I auditioned on viola.
This is the classic viola joke. Literally in my life, it happened this way: I started out freshman year in the back of the second violins. And the next season, my sophomore year, in that youth orchestra, I made it to the second stand of the second violins. And the third year, auditioning on viola, I was put in principal viola. The joke there I think is pretty self-evident, for those of you who aren't familiar with those viola jokes.
OK, so I’m developing on the viola. For whatever reason, I developed faster on the viola. I was starting to play the viola better than I played the violin. So then by the time I was a senior in high school and looking at colleges, I auditioned at three conservatories and one non-music school as a backup, just in case. I had tremendous doubt about whether I had the skill or talent to pursue it professionally. And then at Eastman, we met, you and I. I don't know how it was for you, but it was tremendously intimidating. I didn't know much about the classical music world. Do you remember our, I guess it was the freshmen orientation a few days before school starts, and they had this banner, it was something like “believe in yourself, right from the start.” Do you remember that motto?
John Hagstrom: Yes.
Larry Neuman: And I just remember that because that's so important really in anything you do in life, but in the performing arts, maybe even more so. And I've always been someone who's tremendously affected by my self-doubt. I have a lot of self-doubt. I know we all have some. Each person has to deal with it in their own way, and some don't have to deal with it much at all.
So, anyway, Eastman was a very interesting experience. Four years there, two years in a master's program at USC in Los Angeles. I did a year in a string quartet, the Miami String Quartet, but decided I really wanted to test myself. I really wanted to know if I could get into an orchestra. So I went back to school, Cleveland, the Cleveland Institute. And in that year, that's when I won the job in Chicago.
John Hagstrom: And so you've been here now just about 30 years in the Chicago Symphony. And you spoke earlier about the energy and quality of the sound, and how that really helps us to work together each day to build something great. And in a great orchestra, the reward for doing that is immediate. It sounds great. And of course the penalty for not doing that is also immediate. It doesn't sound as good, and everybody can tell, in really every moment what our level of commitment is.
And so we're always getting feedback on what we're doing and what we maybe need to do together, and I think that's a big part of what people enjoy about listening to the Chicago Symphony. As much as just hearing the sound of some piece of music, you also hear the sound of commitment and caring. And so what are your thoughts on all that from all of your experience with that kind of commitment over so many years and so many concerts?
Larry Neuman: Well, you said it perfectly. I think what you said is right on the money. There's a special feeling that comes from making music together. I know there's a special feeling from doing anything together, right? When people are cooperating and coordinating some effort and really making, building, some thing, it brings people together, and it feels good. And I think people are at their best in those situations and, and the orchestra is no different from that. It's a unique experience and it's something I value tremendously, both for the art itself and efforts toward peace in our world. The music is just so special in and of itself.
By the way, on a slightly side note, I just want to emphasize to anyone who's listening to this that hearing the solo instruments in our orchestra play, they're such phenomenal musicians, and it's so inspiring. It's so magical. There's nothing like it. There's just nothing like it. And here in Chicago we've got, because of the history of the orchestra and because of the people who have given their time and money to founding the orchestra and to sustaining it financially, the orchestra is able to audition and hire the greatest musicians from around the world. That's a special situation, and I hope people don't miss out on the opportunity to come and hear these great musicians in the hall. It's really a special experience.
John Hagstrom: So if someone is listening to this right now, and they're thinking, well, that sounds pretty good. I think I'd like to come to a CSO concert or maybe just an orchestra concert wherever they live. But if they're also maybe worried that they won't really be comfortable or know how to listen to a longer symphonic composition, what advice would you give? What are your thoughts on how to approach doing that, listening to a long symphonic composition if you've never done that?
Larry Neuman: Yeah. A good musical composition is like a story. There's a narrative to it. There's a flow to the music that we strive to create and to hear. And I think one just has to be open to hearing what's happening in that narrative and try to just feel it. And one has to be open to spending time and kind of allowing that, especially if one is new to classical music, if you're new to that, one has to open one's mind to the idea that this is very different from anything else I generally experience. It's just not the way we even experience music, for most people, on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, it’s like going to a play, but very different from that because it's not verbal. So one has to kind of accept that, and just see how it makes you feel.
This idea of live sound and live music. It’s important for people to consider that, because there's a physical aspect to the sound, too. I know when I play the viola, I'm sure it's true on trumpet, too, that you feel the vibrations of the instrument. Of course, the audience won't feel this part in exactly the same way, but I'm feeling it in my bones, both left hand, right hand, you feel the instrument.
There’s a tremendously sensual experience in that way. And I love the feeling of the vibrations of the instrument, let alone my love for the music itself, which is kind of separate, but then they go together in this way. And I think when you hear it, acoustic instruments live, it's just different. It's very, very different. It's worth experiencing. It’s special. It's something we need to keep in touch with.
I haven't really brought this up to them ... but I think our advertising should be: Hey, there's something great about it being completely unplugged. This is something retro. This is something old. There's value in that. We don't need electricity for this special experience. We’re more than that. We're physical people still.
John Hagstrom: Larry, you and I both felt a connection to this music as students, and lots of young people right now that play instruments, who also feel that connection like we did, they might be thinking about the idea of also pursuing a life as a professional musician. But as we know, there's no guarantee of getting a job as a musician, even if you do get into a really good music school. And so all these years later, since you were a music student, what advice would you give to young players who they know that it's going to be difficult. How can they sort of steer themselves through all of the hopes and the uncertainty?
Larry Neuman: Yeah. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most aspiring musicians, most music students at any age, let's say at the conservatory level, like when we met, when you and I met, John. I would say that most of us are hoping that we can be heard alone in some capacity. We love the music so much, and that's why we chose to dedicate our studies and our lives to music. We believe in ourselves to some degree, where we hope that we're going to be either a soloist, or we're going to be principal of this orchestra or that orchestra, or we're going to be in a string quartet, or we're going to play recitals or whatever it might be.
I think most of us have to come to grips as we go through college or conservatory, we have to come to grips with the fact that there's other people out there who might be better than us, who just might sound better, and they might win that job or have that opportunity or win the competition or whatever it might be.
And we learn through the experiences of growing up that basically into adulthood that I'm not good enough for that, or that's not happening for me in that way. And maybe I'll put my love for music in another way. Either I'll teach more or I'll play more orchestra and less solo, or maybe no one will hire me to play solo I’ll do … or whatever it might be. We adapt. And if you love it enough, then you just keep going. You keep doing it.
And by the way, I advise anybody who's considering being a professional musician to only do it if you're absolutely in love with music, and you have to have that kind of commitment. It’s just too hard. It can be too difficult of a life if you're just going, “Oh, well, maybe, you know, I really like it. And, and I'm hoping I can get an orchestra job. ’Cause that seems like a good way to make a living.” No. You have to be obsessed, because most musicians who are, let's say auditioning for an orchestra, most of them do not get it — the vast majority. So you really have to be willing to make sacrifices.
John Hagstrom: So Larry, you've given some really great insight and advice for aspiring players looking forward to their life as musicians. And I'm wondering if you can now also look back on your own path to have become a professional player and talk about your decisions that helped you eventually find your life as a musician.
Larry Neuman: Yeah, I guess it's kind of like what I was saying before. I think I modified my view and my self-view, and my ideas of what could happen in the future, in my career. I modified that as I went through the years of school and training. I did not have a very concrete idea of how I would be making a living as a musician. My decision to commit to music came fairly late in high school, I think at the end of junior year in high school, or maybe even a little later than that, I thought, OK, I'm going to go for this. I was loving it so much, and I was getting encouragement from those around me.
So for me personally, and again, this there's a spectrum for this, for sure. Some people have tremendous confidence and just know they believe in themselves and they're going to go for it, and I was not that kind of person. I'm still closer to the other end of the spectrum. And fortunately I had some level of ability or talent and love for it that kept me working at it.
I got lucky, I got really lucky, but I can't say that I had some clear idea of what I would do. I did not. And I just wanted to keep playing and I wanted to keep learning this great music, and I wanted to be better and better as a violist in this case. Yeah. So it just changed. And then you realize as you're going through, OK, I did this competition and I'll audition for that festival or this summer program, and you're exposed to different musicians of different abilities and different teachers. And you learn slowly, OK, this is where I'm fitting in. It's always developing and changing, and we each have a different sense of identity and self-confidence,
John Hagstrom: We've been talking so far lots about being a member inside of the CSO, but as we start to finish this time, what are your thoughts about how and why the CSO is a great organizational citizen within the city of Chicago? So I guess what, what kind of special contribution does the CSO make to the city? And I guess it's sort of a question about being cultural caretakers and how would you, how do you describe all of that?
Larry Neuman: So first I think of it in terms of things that human beings create or have created over many hundreds of years, or even thousands of years in terms of art and concepts and ideas and expression, and some things just last and last and people just enjoy them over time or find meaning in them over time, as they're passed down from generation to generation. And I'm a big believer that these things are just important. They just have a value to society, to human beings, to history, to the future.
So that's why when you get thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of people living together in close proximity and something called the city like Chicago, these things that have been passed down and that are continuing to be passed along, people continue to enjoy them and large numbers sufficient to support it. Some finances, right? It takes economic support.
To me, it's critical. It's essential. We've talked about this before, John, because it takes a certain amount of time spent with these expressions, these various art forms, to really appreciate them and want to propagate them and continue them. So for me, the Chicago Symphony is a very, very important part of the city here in Chicago. Always in a deep debt of gratitude, I feel to the Board of Trustees that runs the Chicago Symphony and keeps it going and who are dedicated. Without them, and without people like that who care, it would be lost. So it's our mission to keep it, even those of us who are just playing the music, especially maybe those of us who are just playing. We just got to keep it going.
John Hagstrom: I want to ask you if you just have now any closing thoughts about just being in the orchestra and anything else you might want to say to students and maybe even to other CSO players who could be hearing this.
Larry Neuman: I do appreciate the dedication and commitment from my colleagues. It's very clear. It's an orchestra full of people who care and who want to do their best every day and every week. And I can't overstate how grateful feel, how lucky I feel, even after 30 years, to be in this orchestra. And it's just a great privilege. My love of music has only deepened over these years. It has not waned at all. And I just get more and more fascinated by it and intrigued by it. And after 30 years, I still want to get better.
And one thing I would tell any student for sure, is that you’ve got to — It’s an age-old idea it's not my idea — but I find that if you can enjoy the process, the whole process, it’s so much more enjoyable. Not just the goals of what you're striving for, but enjoying the process, practicing, finding a way to enjoy it and enjoy the process of learning. And that makes it all the more worthwhile.
John Hagstrom: And you have made this time so worthwhile for listeners, and we're grateful that you've shared your thoughts about so many things. You have set such a positive example for me and for the whole orchestra over all these years. And so thanks so much for doing that.
Larry Neuman: Yes, it's been a great pleasure, John; thank you again for having me.
John Hagstrom: And thanks so much to you for listening to this podcast. We hope you'll take the time to explore and enjoy some of the great recordings made by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, some excerpts of which you've just heard. And we'll look forward to seeing you again soon at Symphony Center, after our Intermission at the CSO.
For more information about this podcast, our guests and links to the music in this episode, please visit cso.org, where you'll also find complete playlists for each episode and up-to-date information about the exciting programming we're planning on CSOtv, which is part of our commitment to provide musical excellence both before and after our regular concerts resume at Symphony Center. While you're visiting cso.org, if you've enjoyed our podcast and would like to support the mission of the CSO, please consider a donation or a sponsorship.
Intermission at the CSO is produced by John Hagstrom and Scott Brewer for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Association, and thank you for listening.
Next time on intermission at the CSO, we'll be talking with a group of CSO players about their experiences outside of Symphony Center, performing in Chicago's communities; playing for students in schools and representing the city playing concerts around the world, and you won't want to miss any what they have to say. That's next time on Intermission at the CSO.