Jennifer Gunn has played flute and piccolo as a Chicago Symphony Orchestra member since 2005. She shares her dramatic story of auditioning for the CSO and anticipates the return to live CSO concerts.
Jennifer Gunn has been a Chicago Symphony Orchestra member since 2005, performing on the flute and piccolo. She shares the dramatic story of how she won the audition for her position and pays tribute to Walfrid Kujala, her famous predecessor. She also gives advice to aspiring performers; explains how she prepares her parts in advance of rehearsals; and talks about why she loves the live CSO concert experience.
Jennifer Gunn: I have to listen beyond the timbre of my own instrument. It's not just the written page. It's beyond the page.
John Hagstrom: Welcome to interMISSION @ the CSO, taking you behind the scenes at the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and sharing stories about what it takes to make this one of the world's great orchestras. I'm John Hagstrom. I play in the trumpet section of the CSO. And this episode features a CSO musician whose instrument rises high above the rest of us, making her pretty hard to miss. And in case you haven't already figured it out, that means we'll be speaking to Jennifer Gunn. She's been playing the flute and piccolo as a CSO member since 2005.
She was hired by then-CSO music director Daniel Barenboim. And before joining the orchestra, she had already been a full-time performer with three other orchestras, including as assistant principal flute with the Louisville Orchestra. And so let's get started. Welcome to interMISSION @ the CSO.
Jennifer Gunn: Thanks, John.
John Hagstrom: Well, let's start by saying that your sound is often right front and center. Just about every note you play, people hear because of the sound of your instrument — which I think is the smallest instrument in the orchestra. It's a beautiful sound. And so for someone who maybe has no idea what a piccolo is, how would you describe the sound of the piccolo, and how it fits into the orchestra?
Jennifer Gunn: That's a hard question to answer, John. I think I play the smallest melodic instrument in the orchestra. I think if someone didn't know what the piccolo was, I might compare it to a recorder or a high-pitched whistle. Something with a sort of a flute-like quality. If they don't know the name of the piccolo, it's shortened from piccolo flute. And we just call it piccolo for short. I think I would just say it's a very sweet addition to the very tip top of the sounds that you hear. And it just sorts of glows on the top of the orchestra.
John Hagstrom: I think every CSO member remembers the excitement and the stress, too, of how they ended up auditioning for the CSO, with all the details of the uncertainty that go along with preparing for months ahead of time, and then coming out onto the stage of Orchestra Hall to get just a few minutes to be heard by the audition committee. Which for those who don't know, it's from behind a screen so that the candidates are completely anonymous. And then in the final round, just a few finalists play for the music director, who makes the final decision of who will be hired, or if maybe no one will be hired.
Your audition story is really amazing. And so I want to you to talk about it, not only for our listeners to know more about what it takes to become a CSO member, but also to share the way that you weren't successful right away, and how you had the determination to keep trying. And so please share with us how you decided to audition for the CSO, and your thoughts about what this job would require. And then tell us what it was like to get into the finals of your first CSO audition. About what it was like to play for the music director, at that time was Daniel Barenboim. And especially tell us what it was that he said to you afterward, and where that led you.
Jennifer Gunn: When I started taking auditions for orchestras, this orchestra was a little out of my league, to be honest, and there were no openings. So I was well into my third orchestra job. And my piccolo-playing colleague said, "Jennifer, there's an opening in the Chicago Symphony. You better try for that." And I think I was old enough to say, "Well, OK. I don't think I'm quite qualified, but I'm not unqualified to try." I thought, "Well, I'm not going to embarrass myself, and I'm not going to waste the committee’s time trying. So yeah, I think I'll go."
This is not the kind of orchestra you want to step into the audition ring when you're 17 years old, for most people, anyway. The Chicago Symphony is the kind of job for a classical musician that we would sort of label as a destination career job. This is the kind of job that you want to have a little experience under your belt, usually. And you have to have the highest level of musicianship and dedication to bring the orchestra together as a whole. That's not something you can take lightly when you audition for a job like this.
So I made the finals for the piccolo chair. There's no way to describe the emotions you have when you're taking one of these auditions. It’s sort of an out-of-body, a hyper-sensitive situation. During the finals, Maestro Barenboim sat on stage with each of us individually and conducted us through every excerpt that was asked of us. And then it got to the sight-reading where he turned over the music, and he said, "Do you know what this is?" And it was just the last page of the Mahler 9, so it didn't have a composer written on the page. It was just notes — I didn't know. And I said, "No, I don't know what that is." And he said, "It's Mahler 9. Do you know Mahler 9?" And I said, "no." I had never played in an orchestra with a budget big enough to play Mahler 9.
So he proceeded to whistle that descending scale. And it's difficult for breathing because it's a long passage. While he was whistling it, he was probably taking a breath every second half note or something. And I had never heard it before. So when he was done whistling to me, I said, "Maestro Barenboim, where should I take a breath?" And he looked at me and said, "You shouldn’t!"
But after the audition, no one was hired. I have to say I had an immense amount of relief come over myself, because I knew the kind of job I was auditioning for, and when I got so close, it really scared me. I had gotten close enough that I knew it's a possibility now, and I didn't honestly know if I had what it would take to be one of the people that sat on that stage permanently. So that was a scary time.
But Maestro Barenboim told me what I needed to work on in order to have a better chance at winning the job the next time around. I'll never, ever forget. He said to me, "You don't play the piccolo, do you?" And this was in private when we were in his office. And I could have been extraordinarily insulted by that. But I wasn't, because he was dead right. And I said, "No, I don't." Of course, I play the piccolo, but I've never held a piccolo job. And I was obviously not playing the piccolo in that particular audition as a piccolo player. I was just playing as a little flute player, which is not terrible. That's not a bad thing to say, but it's just the attention to detail and that switching of mind-set that he noticed.
So really what we talked about was how I should approach this instrument. That was pivotal for me to really hone my skills on the smaller flute. And I remember just running home and starting to practice everything he talked about. He sat at the piano and played chords and talked about music with me and pitch and voicing, and just to approach the instrument a little differently for the level of orchestra I was auditioning for.
John Hagstrom: That's such a great story because some people would have just walked out in a huff, but you didn't. And you kept working until they had another audition later that you won, but it was because you learned from the advice you were given. And so I'm sure everyone listening wants to know about all of that. So please tell us the story of how it happened.
Jennifer Gunn: Well, like I said before, I had auditioned, and no one was hired, which is something that can happen and is weird when you go through all these rounds and pour your heart out. And then the personnel manager comes out and says, "Thank you for coming. No one's hired today." When that happens, it's sort of like, OK, it's a little bit of a letdown, with all the preparation you've put in. In my case, a letdown, but kind of a relief. And then I was called to be a substitute, which was exhilarating and very exciting, scary. And after going on that European tour, I was invited back to audition again. And at the time of the audition that I actually was awarded the job, I was substituting in the orchestra. I believe it was Bruckner 9. So I had to go to work in the morning and sub in the orchestra and then in the afternoon, play the finals, knowing that I had to go to work that night and play a concert, thinking, well, if I don't win, I still have to play the concert, so I was a little nervous — I was a lot nervous!
After I was done playing, I was convinced I did not play well enough. And I remember going back into the room they assigned me. We all get private rooms at that point. And I remember bursting into tears, thinking I've just blew it. I just blew my only chance. Anyway, the finalists were then gathered, and the personnel manager came out, thanked everyone for coming, and then said the committee and Maestro Barenboim have decided to hire Jennifer Hackett — that was my last name at the time. And I was stunned. I was in total shock. I probably had mascara running down my face because I'd already been crying.
But I remember I had just been on this three-week tour not that long before and gotten to know a lot of my colleagues very well. And was feeling like in that moment, after the audition where I really thought I didn't play well enough. In that probably only three minutes, feeling like I had made all these friendships that maybe I was about to walk away from, and I was extraordinarily sad that I wouldn't be able to make music with them again, and all these emotions. And then to have that completely turn on its head and say, "Jennifer, you've done it. You've won. We'd like you to be the piccolo player of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra." And having these wonderful colleagues embrace me. It was a magical experience. And even … what are we at, 15 years ago now? I can remember it like it was yesterday.
John Hagstrom: It really is a strong memory for each of us. And for music students, especially the story of how someone found success on their own path can be so much more helpful than the instructions you might just read in a book. I've learned so much that way myself, and there are lessons you never forget. And something else CSO members never forget is the quality of the orchestra they come into as new members. And the great musicians that have created the amazing artistic history of this orchestra. And the CSO piccolo position is no exception, and you can tell that I am setting you up to talk about your famous piccolo predecessor. So please talk about him, and your thoughts on what all his contributions mean to you.
Jennifer Gunn: Yeah. So if people don't know, my predecessor is Walfrid Kujala, affectionately known by all of us as Wally. Wally was in the orchestra — I believe it was 47 years. He started as assistant principal and then quickly moved to the piccolo chair. That man is a living legend, and he has a whole army of students all over the world, holding flute chairs, piccolo chairs, all sorts of musical positions. He's a renowned pedagogue and phenomenal player. He has put the piccolo on the map, really championing this little flute as not just a piccolo, but an actual musical voice. And that was not lost on me when the job opened, and I knew what kind of hole was being left by him leaving. I had never actually met Wally until I was in the CSO. I wasn't one of his former students. My teachers weren't former students of his, so I didn't have a direct connection to him, but he has been incredibly wonderful to me. It's just an incredible honor.
I feel like most people in the CSO feel the weight of their predecessors, the long line of just wonderful musicians and people that have made the CSO what it is. I think we all feel just this immense pride to keep that kind of thing going. There isn't a day I don't think about Wally sitting in that chair. Every one of us is a very different player than our predecessor, but it doesn't diminish the legacy we continue. Like I said, even if we are not the same kind of player, the integrity we have for our craft and what we do, we're going to keep passing on from player to player.
John Hagstrom: Many people who haven't played an instrument, and sometimes younger students, too, just think that CSO musicians learn our parts at the rehearsals like they do in school. But of course, that's not true at all. And so I'm hoping you can talk about what you do to prepare the parts that people see and hear you play so well each week. And so please tell us the whole story of how you get ready for CSO rehearsals and concerts.
Jennifer Gunn: My preparation would start well in advance of the week. In a normal season, I'm going to look at the calendar with the repertoire for the entire season. And I'm going to look ahead and from a little bit of experience, I know which composers to look out for, as far as difficulties on my instrument or challenging passages. I know some of that ahead of time, so I'm going to go to get those parts well in advance of the weeks ahead, maybe a month or two, depending on the symphony that we're playing. So I can slowly start learning stuff. And a lot of repertoire I have in my own library, so I can just pull parts and start learning them.
I love when people ask me about playing in the orchestra, and "How many rehearsals do you have?" These kinds of questions. And I say, "Well, we have a new program every week, and every Tuesday, we're playing new repertoire that you hear on Thursday night.” So that's not even three full days. It's typically four rehearsals, one of those being Thursday morning when the show is Thursday night, so we better be in tip-top shape Thursday morning. So that's really only three rehearsals to learn the whole repertoire for the week. You can't walk in Tuesday morning and not have practiced those parts to know every note cold, so there's a lot of preparation in advance.
I will get my parts as soon as they're available to me and start chipping away at the pieces. I'll listen to them, of course, many times if a recording is available of the piece. Usually, newer works will have tempo markings on the material, so if I can't get a sense of how the piece sounds because there is no recording, at least I can go along when a metronome marking is indicated, for me to start practicing up to speed. We also have access to check out full scores, and I will do that from time to time if it's something that I'm not very familiar with. If it's something that I'm more familiar with, I'll probably just go into the library and check some spots out so I'm not hogging that score at home. Yeah, so I go through the parts that way and slowly try to get all the notes down.
John Hagstrom: I sit in the trumpet section, and I see you from behind, and over the years, I can tell just by the way you move your head how you thought it went. You have a way of kind of looking, "Well, take that, buddy," and with good cause because it's so gorgeous. But I know just from talking to you that you have such high standards and any little thing that isn't just perfect, you're just like, "Oh, woof!”
Jennifer Gunn: You’re right. I'm pretty hard on myself.
John Hagstrom: You are.
Jennifer Gunn: Not on others, but on myself.
John Hagstrom: I’m giving you a hard time right now, but that very sensibility is what makes the Chicago Symphony great. That you don't wait for a conductor to say, “Well, geez, I’d like that little note to have a little different sound to it." That's your job and it's my job, and I think very rarely does a conductor ask for some little perfect nuance that they're not getting. It's our job to do that, and I'm wondering how you try to contribute things on a regular basis that the conductor never asks for.
Jennifer Gunn: One thing, I feel like when we're students we want to be very soloistic and very creative, but maybe that creativity is a little bit wild, a little rough around the edges, a little ignoring what’s on the page kind of thing. And playing in the ... people talk about being a musician as a soloist or a musician as an orchestral player. I think we have to be both, but in the orchestra, I think it's a really special quality. We're servants to the pieces we're playing, so it's not all about us. Being an orchestral player is a little bit like having to play in this imaginary box with very defined sides and roof and floor and ceiling, and we have to play inside. Can't go outside the lines, but it’s our job to fill the entire box. So for me, I want to follow the leader. I want to fit in with the group. I feel like there are very clear roles each instrument has where they follow, where they come out of the texture, where they go back into the texture, and I think it's our job. I think everybody on that stage is extraordinarily attentive to what's happening in front of them [the person on the podium], because we all know what it means to be a member of the orchestra and follow.
John Hagstrom: I sometimes speak to students after a concert, and often they are coming to the concert on a trip with their band or orchestra, and so I have to ask this question on their behalf because they are always so impressed by the virtuosity of the whole orchestra, but often by you for playing such incredibly difficult parts under pressure in the spotlight. And so what advice would you give to younger students who might get overwhelmed by the difficulties of performing hard music in a big concert?
Jennifer Gunn: I think one of the maybe biggest things that separates the student from the professional is maybe in student days you have this instinct, and it’s this fight or flight kind of thing. And maybe when you're a student, you just sort of stop, because you can't keep up. And in professional life, well, I'm sitting on that stage. It's going a little faster than I know I can play with the absolute most clean articulation, clean fingers, all that, but I can't not do it. I have to go through with the thing, so in that kind of situation I'm experienced enough to know OK, different tempo, different tonguing, but most of all, I'm going to rely on my air to get me through, and I'm going to try to push forward. I'm going to try to not let go. I can't stop. Just got to keep going full speed, and there's really no time to think about anything. It's just like go, go, go, go until it's done. Then when it's over, then you can let the adrenaline overwhelm you. But until then, you have to just ... For me, it's all about pushing my air, getting my air to really almost blow the nerves away.
John Hagstrom: We’re coming out of a time when people aren't really going to have been outside. They may be afraid to be around people. We've certainly been conditioned with that now, but at the point when it's relatively safe, and it's just more of a choice to go back and be in the environment of live music and live expression. What do you say for why a live concert and a symphony of what you've described so beautifully is not outdated? It's not something we want to turn away from. It's still a part of a vital human experience.
Jennifer Gunn: Yeah. I love listening to music. You know how we all have had to the last however many months now. I love having it on the speakers around the house. I love listening to it through my headphones while I'm on walks. I love all that, but I can't wait to get back to work. I can't wait not only to get back to work, to sit on the stage with my colleagues to feel what that feels like. It's so different to sit in the middle of the whole orchestra. I feel like I have one of the best seats in the house because I'm right in the center, so I can hear all you guys and the strings around us.
It's really a magical place to be, but I can't wait to sit in the audience, too. I can't wait to feel what it feels like to experience this live again. That kind of thing you're not going to experience on a recording. You're going to sit in the hall with your fellow audience members, and we're all going to experience this magic, this organic thing, all together. And I think that's so special. From the audience at Symphony Center, the seats are so close to that stage. Really, it’s a very kind of narrow and tall hall, so from any seat in the house, you really feel like you're pretty much on top of those musicians. You can see what they're doing before the music starts, who are they talking to, what are they doing, how are they thinking about this, or they're trying their little licks on their trumpet back there or whatever.
I think it's a magical experience to see what's happening before the concert starts. It's magical when the concertmaster comes out, and we start to feel the whole audience. OK, it's time to get serious, it's time to pay attention. And then when, especially when Maestro Muti walks out, the whole energy in this one giant room of how many thousand seats we have, and all the people on stage, the whole energy changes. And I think it's very exciting, as an orchestral member, to feel that. It's exciting for me when I get to be an audience member. This energy that happens when the conductor comes out, the whole audience and the musicians on stage are glued into each other, and then we all have this experience together.
John Hagstrom: Over that time, which could be several hours, and you've had time to reflect and to enjoy the sound and the energy, the risk, the excitement and that energy is really the performance. You're hearing the humanity of people working together and creating something in this moment with this set of tools that we have, and that's always a triumph.
Jennifer Gunn: Yeah, I think that's perfectly said, John. We've all heard Beethoven 5 before, but when you come to the hall and you hear each of these human beings coming together to give their all, I get really excited because now 15 years in, I know faces, I might not know their names, but I know very regular faces in the crowd. And I know they're there week after week because they hear the humanity that we bring to the music, and that's really special.
John Hagstrom: I think I can speak for all of the CSO musicians and staff to say that we are really grateful for CSO listeners and supporters who are tuned in to the extraordinary efforts we all make to bring them something more than just the notes. And you and I have spoken before about the idea of hearing vs. really listening. Because with the ability to really listen, comes the chance to be transformed. So as we finish this time together, please share some of your thoughts just on listening.
Jennifer Gunn: Being a good listener isn't just hearing words. Being a good listener, isn't just listening to you talk. I could listen to you talk all day; it doesn't mean I'm hearing you. And I think for us, being a good listener in our jobs, in music, isn't just hearing the notes, it's hearing beyond the notes, it's connecting with a sound that you can't ... it's not tangible, you can't touch it, you can't feel it, but you somehow to have to get inside of it. I have to listen beyond the timbre of my own instrument. It's not just the words, it's not just the music. It's not just the written page. It's beyond the page. We all have to somehow create this magic beyond the written music.
John Hagstrom: Well, that is a wonderful final thought. And let me say, Jennifer, you are a great citizen of the CSO, and we are all so much better off because you are in this orchestra, and it's a pleasure to hear you, you have inspired me so much. I know I speak for a legion of audience members for whom you represent excellence and inspiration. So on behalf of all of us, thank you so much.
And thanks so much to you for listening to this podcast. We hope you'll take the time to explore and enjoy some of the great recordings made by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, some excerpts of what you've just heard. And we'll look forward to seeing you again soon at Symphony Center after our interMISSION @ the CSO. For more information about this podcast, our guests and links to the music in this episode, please visit cso.org, where you'll also find complete playlists for each episode and up-to-date information about the exciting programming we're planning on CSOtv, which is part of our commitment to provide musical excellence both before and after our regular concerts resume at Symphony Center.
While you're visiting cso.org, if you've enjoyed our podcast and would like to support the mission of the CSO, please consider a donation or a sponsorship. InterMISSION @ the CSO is produced by John Hagstrom, Scott Brewer and Jeff Haney for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Association. And thank you for listening.
Next time on interMISSION @ the CSO, we'll be talking with violist Larry Neuman, who has been a member of the CSO since 1991. He'll talk about his own path to get here and how he helps to build the unity and energy of the CSO string section. You won't want to miss a single moment of all he has to say. That's next time on interMISSION @ the CSO.